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Weight against strength

Sumo
The World Games in Kaohsiung in 2009
A diminutive Russian takes on a Ukrainian giant Olga Davydko.
World Games in Kaohsiung

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Our visitor Mr. Demel placed his reminiscences on the "Forum" about his experience in wrestling with a heavier girl. Based on this story he makes some conclusions about male vs. female combative capabilities. We are placing them along with the discussion on the familiar from our childhood topic - "whether a whale defeats an elephant or vice versa". Besides, a story about Alexey Bauman's experience in this area is published.


We just did not know what to do with each other

Demel:

…You can conclude from the analysis of appearance of men and women in sports that achievements of women come to about 85-90% of men’s results. At that, these figures fall within the most of sports and don’t change too much during last decades. So, we can consider them as a pattern.

Thus if skill level and other things being equal a man has an advantage just by nature.

This conclusion is confirmed by mundane observations. I am sure that if it’s happened to wrestle with a girl I will always defeat an ordinary girl of my weight (under the condition of lack of skills because I have never participated in wrestling).

However, in wrestling it might be compensated. We guess that an average woman is 10-15% weaker than an average man you can make their chances equal if she has a weight advantage of the same 10-15%. According to the mechanics laws in this case the capabilities should be equal. I figured this out by my own experience. The story is that in the only case when I wrestled a female (simmer, empty beach, beer… :)) my opponent was a little bit bigger than me (6’8"/159lb agains my 6’6"/139). In fact, it’s difficult to call "wrestling" a match between two persons not having any wrestling skills (no holds or throws was conducted. :) But the result did corresponded my above mentioned conclusions. The competition lasted about 5 minutes, it started in standing and ended on the ground - it was really equal.

FSCClub remark: It cna be imagine, how such matches in slightly oiled condition usually end at the "friendship"

Demel: It was next time when the "friendship won". But that day we really wanted to figure out who was stronger – just for fun. It was a continuation of our discussed in which we tried to conclude if it was appropriate if a girl was bigger and stronger than her boyfriend. I agreed with the first circumstances but not with the second one. So, I didn’t want to lose.

So, I am recalling how it was. I just put may arms around her waist and in spite of her persistent resistance I managed to topple her down but I still was unable to pin and to hold her. We were wrestling lying down tightly embraced and I had a hard time there. While I had enough energy I attacked her and tried to press her against the groung despite I was lighter. Then she put her arms around my body and attempted to capture me by her big legs. Aftermatch she said that she had seen how women squeezed men by their tighs in wrestling, so she had tried that on me. But I didn’t give her this pleasure. A couple of times I pressed her shoulder blades against the ground but she threw me off. As a matter of fact I didn’t have enough weight to win. As a result, I got tired to turn her around and she leaned heavily on me by her weight and started pin me down. frankly speaking, at that moment I got afraid for the match result because I realized that if she pins me I would be unable to resist. I was just lucky to be turned inside out and to lie on my stomack. In the next moment I just defended and she tried to lift me slightly and to turn me around. But I manage to withstand and she was tired too. At the end I was lying on my stomach and she was sitting on my neck not allowing me to stand up and the main thing was that we didn’t know what to do with each other. Then she said that in fact she should punch me out as she saw in no-holds-barred but she was unable and offered a draw? That’s was the decisin. So, the draw…

Arenamaster: My experience says that if a person has 90% of another person’s physical and technical skills he will lose 90% of matches. He or she might win 10% because anything might happen in wrestling. As to technical/experience vs. strength it’s quite complex – anything might happen and you can’t derive a nice dependence. Let’s consider an extreme case "no shield against a crowbar". For instance, a 300-lb. "bull" who pulled out my Volkswagen from a pathway just by himself when I sat on "paunch". It’s obvious that a world champion in Judo-Sambo-Freestyle wrestling in the category 106 lb., even 132 lb. won’t do anything against the guy who hasn’t any combat experience. On the other hand, I told the other day how a girl-sambist rolled me over a mat despite my 22-lb. advantage and my significant athletic background. And at the same time, I have defeated (with a difficulties though) a girl-judoist 6’00"/198lb in a friendly match who stood against my 5’9"/165lb. However, in the most cases a man has more chances against a woman of the same weight and the same skills.

Demel: As to Physics, may be there is no such a law but you should agree that in case of equal experience you might compensate strength lack only by weight advantage. But percentage figures are the matter of discussion and calculations.

Ilya: I don’t consider Demel’s opponent’s parameters as outstanding. I am sure I would overpower such a girl (and any other as well) even she has combative experience. Perhaps, Demel didn’t have motivations for a victory; just he didn’t want to be defeated – that’s it. In fact, from Demel’s story we can conclude that your opponent won.

Demel: I don’t have any doubts in your victory because your parameters are almost equal to hers (a girl has few chances in case of weight equity). For me it was a serious problem – her weight advantage, athletic skills and temper (which is important too). I didn’t risk offering her rematch without break because I really didn’t know how to overcome the heavier and strong opponent in tight contact par terre wrestling. I am afraid that in wrestling going in such scenario she would just run over me. Of course I didn’t have a motivation "to fight for life" or for an Olympic medal but I wrestled in full strength and it was important to me not to lose and it happened to be not easy.

We drifted away from the topic though. Is it possible to make mixed competition equal compensating men’s strength superiority by women’s weight advantage? The question is not about weight vs. skills. Let’s guess skills are equal. The question is how large should be this advantage. Based on my experience my estimate was about 15%.


"A woman remains a woman even she is bigger and stronger than a man"

Marilou Dozois-Prevost
Marilou Dozois-Prevost, Canadian weightlifter
Photo courtesy of Miss Fipi Lele
JoeyDevilla

I also had one experience of wrestling with a girl. It was long ago when I was 16 and she was 19. That time I didn’t think about such matter as weight and gender regularities in sports. In addition, I hadn’t had any experience with female gender.

We became acquainted with her in a Summer camp. She was not an ordinary girl but the experienced athlete, a volleyball master-candidate. She trained every day on a meadow along with other volleyballists and I saw her facetious bustles with guys. She was tall and had quite solid and trained body and she seemed to be heavier than me. By that time I had physically formed and I my parameters were 5’10"/148lb. Unexpectedly, this ardor and energetic girl showed an interest to me although a lot of male volleyballists of her age and older were hanging around her whereas I was a quiet and shy boy. One day we were walking with her in a forest and suddenly she started gamboling and pushing me aside by her durable thighs driving me into a small meadow. We grabbed each other’s shoulders by hands and started pushing attempting to take each other down. In fact, I hadn’t participated in any sports but liked to wrestle with boys in a courtyard on grass, so I had had some elementary wrestling skills. At the beginning I felt some strange feeling of the contact with a girl’s body, strong but different from boy’s one.

At first, I was unable to enter into wrestling and she managed to push me down by stepping on my foot, shrilly pulling aside and shaking off my hands. I shamefully fell on my ass and she remained standing and loudly laughing. Piqued and offended, I quickly stood up and pounced on her. Getting excited by wrestling I became braver and wrestled in full strength. I grabbed her neck by elbow and held it from the side. Then I pressed her body firmly against mine and started bend her down, trying to take her down by hooking on her leg. She was persistently defending, stood firmly moving her legs apart. She also grabbed my neck from the side and placed her hip against my stomach, trying to use it as a fulcrum and to lift me slightly and throw me down – she definitely had some wrestling skills. But I slipped off her hip-block and started strongly squeezing her neck down by my interlocked hands (we called this hold "death key") putting all my weight on her. After all, I took her down sideways on the grass finding myself on top of her. She quickly turned around on her stomach and I began to turn her around by usual move – I hooked my arm through her armpit and pressed the hand against her neck; at the same time, I embraced her body by my second arm and used legs as additional leverages. In a moment I turned her on her back, pressed her against the ground using all my weight and fixed the pin by spreading my strained legs apart – at that moment I didn’t think too much about vulnerable parts of her body. After short resisting and wriggling she abated and said: "Well, you managed to overpower a girl? By the way, you hurt me, a bear!" Perhaps, if I were smarter the result of the "match" would be different. But ashamed I helped her to stand up, shook her off and apologized. And she gave out the phrase I have been remembering all my life: "Never forget that a woman remains a woman even she is bigger and stronger than a man"... Except this case, I have never wrestled a woman and I haven’t met any woman like that volleyballist.

Comparing combative capabilities of women and men you shouldn’t forget that besides strength, weight and skills, there are other important factors (physical and psychological) which make even an athletic woman more vulnerable in physical combat. Not going into details we can list the following factors: fear to spoil appearance (face, arms, legs, neck) and to damage vulnerable parts of female body – breasts and internal organs. Besides, female and male psychologies are different. Julia Volkova expressed this very well: "The Nature places on women a mission of a continuer of the human race and they unconsciously aim to survive in order to have offspring and to take care of them. That's why being tete-a-tete with an uncontrolled power and involving into a combat situation where there is no referee and qualified medical care a woman starts panicking. In order to successfully practice martial arts a woman has to cultivate grain by grain the features which a man already has inherently."


Alexey Bauman


FSCC remark: The most of female combatants who have been interviewed in the club admitted that they expected a special treatment from men. How can you compensate psychophysical features of a woman by pounds or kilograms?

June 2002


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